The Inclusive Code Podcast - Episode 5: Starting Off Strong, Getting Curious and the Call-Out Culture with Savier Osorio

In this episode of the Inclusive Code Podcast, we were joined by the fantastic Savier Osorio.

Savier is a Director at Hims & Hers and has a plethora of experience across the HR and people strategy world. He's also a vocal and passionate ally who is dedicated to furthering diversity, equity and inclusion across communities and workplaces.

He conveyed this passion throughout this episode, with discussions on why it's crucial to consider DEI practises and approaches as early as possible when starting a business, how taking a curious approach to topics helps to promote empathy and how businesses would be naive to believe that they won't be called out for unethical practises in the current climate.

To listen to the full episode with Savier, click here or follow the preview below.

Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do and how you got here?

S - Yes. So my name is Savier. Some people call me Savi. So I go by Savi, Savier, or whatever works for you.

I've been doing HR now for close to a decade, which is crazy for me to believe because I'm not that old. I feel like it's been a whirlwind of an experience. But, fun fact: like many people who are in the HR space, I accidentally fell into this. It was not my focus; I actually focused on business and environmental science. I thought that was my career of choice and that I was going to go down that road after college and uni, and it was very interesting. 

I got the opportunity to work at a water restoration dam which was focused on sustainability, but I ended up getting a job in HR, and that opened the door to human resources, and it really made me passionate about what it does in a business and how it creates an inclusive, equitable work environment, which I think is very important.

As a person of colour myself, diversity is such a key component to where I want to be and how long I want to be in a place. But also, does a company represent me? Does it value me well? Can I contribute? For me and my career, those are questions I always think about. It's an opportunity for me to talk about diversity and inclusion.

Because I'm in that HR space, it’s such an amazing opportunity to be one of the individuals who either steers, hosts, or facilitates conversations around diversity and inclusion. Especially in American companies, I think it's very clear that DEI has been a big topic over the last couple of years but has been even more heightened recently over the time of the pandemic with the Black Lives Matter movement that happened as well. 

It's been a conversation for a long period of time, but I think it's definitely something that requires check-ins and making sure that we're talking about it actively.

OH - That's very interesting what you were saying about what we need to keep checking in on DEI. It's so relevant because, at the moment, with the state of the world, seeing people maybe making one post and then just posting to the story and then never really talking about a topic is very common.

I think sometimes we have quite a short attention span, or we think that just mentioning it once or just reading about something might be enough. To an extent, that is a step forward, but it's actively having the conversations and bringing those conversations to the table that is also very important. 

When is a good point to start talking about and looking at DEI when you're starting a company?

S – Yeah, that's a great question. I've been working for a lot of pre-funding companies that go to Series B and Series C, all the way to companies that want to go through an acquisition, and the answer to that question is the sooner, the better. That's what I will say a lot of times; I think now, if you have a company that's started in this last couple of years, you're talking about DEI at least as a component from a customer component to an employee one. 

The sooner you speak about it, the better you'll be. The reason why I say that is the workforce has changed. The labour forces have changed significantly in any country that is experiencing a high amount of mass migration due to changes in policies that allow other people to come as refugees. There are so many areas where countries are now such a melting pot in regard to labour forces.

You will have to encounter this conversation at some point while you have a company. So why not start when you begin? I think the companies that do it right will always focus on the conversations at the beginning. What do our customers look like? How should we target that customer? Is the customer going to want to interact with employees of our business who look like them, talk like them, and maybe have the same mannerisms? I think the earlier you can talk about it, the better you'll be.

Why you should approach DEI with a curious mindset.

It's a hard space to navigate. No one likes to talk about diversity and inclusion all the time because there's so much sensitivity, and there's so much stigma behind saying the right or wrong thing. I think as long as you come from a place of curiosity, it's going to help you. I always say that to founders. I've had founders in the past who say, "I really want to do diversity and inclusion initiatives, but I'm scared of the optics. What if we get backlash? What about cancel culture?" I was like, well, let's come from a place of curiosity.

Let's ask the questions; let's not just make a statement and dive into something without knowing. I think a lot of times when companies don't do that; they fail because they assume that having, like you said, one post talking about something around diversity or that we stand for this and we don't support this, and as a company we believe this, and this is narrative that we want to kind of push forward, it just makes people feel you're disingenuous. Your customer feels like it's disingenuous.

Then, your employees feel that way. Imagine coming into work every day and thinking, yeah, my company's just lying about what they said. They don't really care about it. It's such a demoralising thing for your team. I always say to founders, before you even consider pushing that conversation, pause. Let's get curious. Let's figure out what we've got to do. Do your research on it. Talk to people and network with people who belong in those communities. 

Keep in mind diversity and inclusion don't just mean having people of colour in your company; it means so many things. It means people who have disabilities. It means people who come from different socioeconomic classes. You can incorporate it in so many ways when you're looking at growing your company. But at early-stage startups, my recommendation would be to have those conversations whether you're talking to your current staff that you have and that may be a team of 3 or 4, it might just be the other founder or your wife or husband or your partner or whatever it is.

Just have those conversations, and it’ll help you start thinking about it. Alright, maybe this is the action item I need to do to start having this conversation with others.

OH – Wow, ss you were talking, I thought, this sounds like it's supposed to be easy, to a certain extent. 

What have you seen that people have found most difficult within the DEI world?

S - Yeah, that's a good question. I would say definitely it's not an easy conversation. I always say diversity is supposed to be uncomfortable. Hopefully, in the future, I always say that 200 years from now, I'm hoping that we won't even think about this. This is not even a talking point. I'm hoping we're just like, "Oh, it's that person". We're never thinking, OK, there's this colour, there's this different person; I hope that in the future, there aren't that many stigmas or labels. Naturally, we're human. We always pick up on patterns and differences. I get it.

I think that it's always going to be an uncomfortable conversation, whether you have it with people who are very well-educated and experienced around these conversations or people who haven't had the same exposure. I think the biggest challenge definitely is assuming. If you're assuming that you think you know these conversations and you really don't, what happens is people get offended. People feel like you're not really thinking about them; you're not valuing their opinions. 

I always say it's definitely a difficult conversation, and you also have to be mindful of your audience. Now, there are so many different generations working at a company. There are people who are just turning 18, working at the same company as people who are about to retire. There's very different diversity in thought and diversity in how people perceive expectations that employers should have. I think it's definitely important that you realise the audience because that's the challenging piece. Right now, more than ever, companies are being held accountable for standing up for what they say. If you say I stand for diversity and inclusion by hiring X amount of people who are from underrepresented communities, then people are going to hold you accountable for that; people don't forget these conversations and statements.

Challenges that leadership teams face.

I think that's the challenging piece, too, for individuals and especially founders, CEOs, and boards of directors. Once you say it, follow through. Continue to follow through and continue to have those conversations. You will never be successful at every conversation. You can never please every single person. I've learned that in my career. It's unfortunate because sometimes companies have a very genuine interest in doing it, and what ends up happening is they do it, but maybe it didn't meet somebody's expectation. They wanted more. They wanted to see more money provided to the community. That's OK.

As long as the collective is feeling the value and seeing the desire to help with diversity and inclusion or whatever that mission is, I think it will go a long way, and that's fine. Not everybody has to stay at a company for 5-10 years. Companies evolve and change, and sometimes, people grow out of those values. 

I think those are the components where people get really, especially employers, really in their heads like I can't do it, I can't do it. It's too many what-ifs. It's not really the case. Just have the conversation and start putting it into motion. I think it'll get you to that next stage. But it is a challenge. It is a difficult conversation. 

This is why I say always start from a place of curiosity: if you do come from a place of curiosity, people will see that you're being genuine and asking the right questions.

Somebody might be like, hey, don't ask me these questions; I don't want to be the person always answering this. This is why I say be careful when tokenizing people. Just because you have one person of colour in your company or you have one person who's from the LGBT community, you're making that person the only advocate for these conversations. Don't do that. People hate that. It feels more demoralising for the person. 

But you know, should they be having a seat on the table? Yeah, they should because they're the one person who represents a community that you potentially want to have a bigger network with or consider hiring more of. But I think realising that it's not always the obligation of the employees who are currently with the business. It's also the obligation of the company to consider external resources, non-profits, and external consultants. I think there are a lot of challenging conversations that need to happen.

OH - 100%; it's interesting because you're not the first person this week with whom I've had a conversation about assumptions. I think it keeps coming up a lot in terms of people's really strong beliefs when they clash instead of being curious and being open. I have been there. We all do it when we start a job, and we think we're the best, and we have it down, and no one needs to tell us what to do anymore. But in this case, it is so important to keep wanting, to learn, to just keep listening, even if you don't 100% agree. But to keep those doors open.

It's just so interesting that it just keeps coming up. When I heard you talk, I thought we needed to listen to this.

The reality of difficult conversations and learning in the DEI space.

S – I think it's natural for people to assume. Because I work in HR, sometimes my job is to have very difficult conversations with people. What I found out is it is rarely ever the intention for someone to do something offensive. It was just perceived that way. A lot of it is because they assume that how they were talking and saying things was OK, and then instead of saying, "Let me just check, hey, everybody, is it okay how I'm delivering my message here? Is it coming off as clear, concise, and kind?" Sometimes, if you ask that question, someone would say, "Hey, that kind of rubbed me the wrong way", or "I felt that it was really pointed at me" I think that helps. 

But you are right. Assumptions could really make it or break it for people in companies. Also, I always tell employees not to assume everything is negative.

Sometimes, employers are trying; they are fighting for you. It's not always the man against the corporate world. There are companies that are really good at what they do, and there are companies that take advantage of employees. But it's not always the case. Sometimes, there's a misalignment in values, and you just need to talk about it, get rid of the assumption, and have a very clear and concise conversation.

How has diversity helped startups or companies in general so far?

S - It's interesting. I don't know the exact stat on this, but I remember it very clearly: companies which have a more diverse culture will have a higher margin of profitability than other companies that do not. So, there's a competitive advantage. By default, it makes sense for your business. 

What I like about having it earlier is if I'm someone who is in an underrepresented community, and I see a company, let's just say it's a fashion company, and they have models that look like me and talk like me, the ads that I'm seeing on Instagram and Facebook really feel like a genuine connection for me. There's a higher likelihood that I will click on that ad, go on the site, and maybe purchase something. You bring it in naturally from a customer's perspective. But then maybe I'm in the market for a job, and I'm like, you know what this company really stands for something. It's the first company I've seen being proactive around diversity. I might actually check out their career site.

You put out the energy you want, and the universe will bring that back to you. It's very interesting because I've worked at some early-stage startups, and this startup that I worked at was a beauty company that had a lot of good things going for them from the beginning. They had a celebrity partner who was helping launch this company, but the celebrity partner just stood for diversity and inclusion in such an assertive and loud voice that I think it was very clear from the beginning that this brand was going to be diverse, and no one questioned that. 

I don't think there was even a question. It was great because when I joined this company, I didn’t have to do much to help with their HR strategy; it had already been baked in. It wasn't even a conversation. "Should we think about diversity and inclusion if we're thinking about social impact?" They were thinking about diverse staff. The celebrity's team was also thinking about making sure that the company felt like the customer was being seen. 

They reached out to them through the ads with diverse models that they chose. They chose non-binary folks. They chose trans, queer models. They were very specific about what they wanted. It wasn't just using people to make a sale. It was genuine. The employees reflected that, and that was a great experience because it made the internal company's life easier; they breathed it and lived it every single day. 

The BLM movement and inauthenticity. 

Now, I've worked at other startups where, for example, during the pandemic, diversity and inclusion became a really big topic here in the United States. 

There was such a big conversation after George Floyd's murder, and it really became a talking point for every company. There was this huge trend of calling out companies that were going to stand for something, or they weren't doing it right, and companies that tried doing it at that moment it felt very disingenuous. Some of the conversations I had with colleagues in the HR space were about whether I should enforce these conversations if they were not naturally there.

A little pressure is good. Don't get me wrong. When I say force, I’m always going to tell all my folks that want to stand for something, like bring it up or flag it, that's totally fine. That's how change happens. But if it's not coming from a genuine spot, from the leadership or the board of directors, you're going to have a layer of resistance. 

When you have resistance, it's really hard to get a culture to change and shift. It's almost tiring and impossible. What happens is you lose people through that process. You probably lose some of the folks that you really want to represent more because they feel like, well, "Why am I talking about this? Why am I the one bringing this up in all hands?" or "Why am I the one bringing it up with other managers, and no one's taking action on it?" 

It's hard and challenging. But again, when you start it because it's a buzz, it's not going to go anywhere positively. I think it has to come from a more genuine, authentic leadership perspective, and it has to be something that isn't being forced on you because that's the talking point for the trend. Should you stand for something if you are being called out by your customers and your employees? Yeah, I think you should. You're being asked to say, do you agree with this? Do you not agree with this?

You might be diplomatic about your response and say we're all-inclusive and all that. That's fine. I'm never going to hark at a company that at least says something rather than just keeping quiet and then just being in the background, acting like they're these great companies sponsoring diversity and inclusion or social matters or social impact or corporate responsibility.

Align your mission with your audience and service.

I would say that the earlier you can do it, the better you'll be because you will at least have tried things before, and you will know what works. Not every diversity topic is for every company. This beauty company I worked for really kind of started honing in on the power of beauty products. How for a diverse person such as a trans woman, makeup was empowering. It was powerful to put on blush and eye shadow, to put on makeup and feel like they're their true identity. 

I think that is the power of where, if your product matches it, it's going to be such an easy answer to it. Not all companies need to stand for every single thing because it doesn't generally represent them. I would say pick and choose, and it's also OK to silo and focus on one thing that you think really represents your customer, represents your employee, represents the values of the business.

The call-out culture and businesses following through on promises.

OH -  I think, especially nowadays, with social media and especially during the pandemic where we had nothing else to do, it was so easy to see which company had what values. And even nowadays, we're seeing it with people who are supporting oppressing countries; they're all being called out, and I think especially our generation is not taking that and resorting to things like boycotting and actually making an impact. 

I think it is changing from that perspective as well, as you said. We can see it; we have so much accessibility nowadays that the research is there, and people are so passionately driving and diving into those numbers and making sure that these values actually align. 

As a company that might just externally say we represent this but not actually internally talk about it or do anything about it, it will show. I think, maybe it's just me, but I also just feel the vibe of a company itself or the vibe from the way that you word your job post or the way that you talk about the product will say so much. Even the people that you pick to represent your product or your brand are so incredibly important. 

I moved to this position from the film industry. Seeing people represented in film in a very outdated way through some big shows such as Friends, for example, Chandler's Trans Mom is played by a woman, not a trans woman and things like that. Where nowadays, people see that they watch that, and they're like, why did you do that? They got called out for that about 20 years after the show had aired. 

We were on it; we were calling out the producers and the creators and saying why did you do that? Why did you not just cast a trans woman or films that cast or represent someone who's disabled but don't actually cast a disabled person and so on? The list goes on. I think our generation is becoming increasingly more powerful in just saying things as they are rather than just letting things slide. I think I really appreciate that.

The power of social media and learning from other generations.

S - I agree with you. I have fallen into the trap of TikTok, where I will lose time watching TikTok. But it's amazing because some of the content that I'm seeing, you know, I'm a millennial, so ageing myself here. Gen Z and some of these younger individuals are really talking about this now, and you can see folks talk about it. Kids talk about it as early as 5-6 years. They're using their platforms to really talk about these conversations.

For any company to believe they're not going to be called out today is ridiculous; you're putting yourself in a tunnel that you can't get yourself out of. It's very clear to me that companies will be called out, and it will hurt you. I don't want to say the company that I am aware of, but one has lost millions and millions of dollars because Gen Z is boycotting their products because the company stands for potential genocide and they stand for a tonne of other things that are going on in the world. It's very clear that this younger generation is doing what a lot of the other generations probably wish they could have done. 

Or certain people couldn't feel comfortable speaking out. I always talk to my mom. My mom was a union member and was really loud about using unions because she worked in janitorial services. She always kind of brought that into me where she'd say, speak up for yourself. I was really happy to have somebody like her who was able to show me those values early in my life. But it's interesting because I used to ask her why this couldn't be a conversation that we talked about. People didn't talk about it back in the day. It was like if you talked about it, you had a target on your head. She said she wanted to, but there were not as many resources. 

Now, this is the time that creates a lot of fear for the people who don't want to change. People who don't want to change, people who don't want to be open about these conversations. It's the scariest thing, thinking of a 14-year-old calling you out on social media. It's funny because if that's what you're so scared of, what is the issue here? It's a 14-year-old telling you how they feel and what they should see. They're probably your consumers now; it's just interesting because I do think people don't realise that you should be called out. 

It's OK to be called out. If you don't want any feedback, then you shouldn't be in business because business is all about learning, growing, and getting feedback. I think that the interesting part now is that with social media like TikTok, people can create a whole conversation in less than 60 seconds. It could be the loudest conversation you've heard for 2-3 days. It goes viral, and it's great. It's also very educational. 

I think there's a lot of value in talking about things like diversity and inclusion on TikTok. Because a lot of people didn't teach me about some of the conversations I was going to have about equity. No one told me you have to negotiate your salary. Don't just work, work, work and anticipate a company to give you a raise. You have to negotiate it. Especially if you're someone who is in a minority or an underrepresented community, you probably think that landing a job with a really notable company is the biggest accomplishment that you can do in your career, and it really isn't. It was shocking to me when I had to get myself out of that mentality where

I was like, OK, I made it. I feel like I made it. I'm doing well; I have a good title, I have good pay, that's it. That's the glass ceiling for me. The reality is that you can shatter that several times in your career before you decide, OK, I'm ready for a pivot here. It's interesting. It's definitely going to be interesting to see in the next couple of years, with more individuals coming into the workforce, how these conversations are going to change and how companies need to think about that more and more now than ever.

Why controlling the narrative is crucial for DEI progress.

OH - 100%. I'm also curious to see how things are going to change not just in the conversations but also structurally and educationally because I think there's so much more that we crave to see or want to be educated on what isn't being taught in schools. I mean, we leave school, and we don't really have any idea how to do any of this stuff. Like you just said, asking for a salary raise, who's going to teach me how to do that unless I seek out someone to role-play with me or even just taxes and basic life stuff? We're not taught any of that. It'd be great to see that. It's interesting, though, with social media because I'm also still a 90s baby. Woohoo.

I can still remember because I grew up in a teeny tiny place in Portugal, in the middle of nowhere, and I had my first flip phone. People won't know what those are like anymore. I remember just how much quieter it was but how much less access we had to things. You would still have to go to the library to think about things. What I think about things such as going to the library being different to going on TikTok is that those narratives have been controlled. That history has been controlled in books. However, nowadays, when you go on TikTok, you can see people on the ground in certain places who can tell you the facts about how things are and who are living them.

I think even though it's crazy to think that 15 years ago, the world looked so different. I think that's also why our generations are becoming more restless and angrier because we have access to the data. We don't have to circle a library 50 billion times to try and find a book on a specific topic and then try and talk about it. Now, no one has an excuse. As you have access, you should know these things, or you have access to know about these things. It's very interesting how that is having such a huge impact.

S - Even when thinking about diversity, people are being recorded while at work. They've been doing TikTok videos at work. It's funny because now there's this funny content, where you can have this like corporate humour and you can talk about it. But there are also a lot of people who are giving advice. 

I follow someone on TikTok who focuses on diversity inclusion and really talks about what employment laws support and protect you. They talk about diversity and inclusion because they're a person of colour who had gone through discriminatory, retaliatory behaviour from a past employer. Before, you wouldn't be able to get that content. You have to pay a lawyer $200, $300, $100 an hour to even talk to them. That's after a couple of rounds of conversations. Now you have that content available, and you can ask questions. 

People say here's what I would do. This is what I recommend, and it's such an amazing opportunity to share that thought, share ideas, and have those conversations because diversity is such a large and diverse concept. It can be as many things as possible. It's interesting because I do think TikTok is pushing these narratives even more and more, and I think that's valuable, and people should talk about it. I don't think there's anything wrong. It's not like we need to gate-keep this information where only certain people should know about it. It's like, no, have it out there. It's so much value. 

Transparency is the new norm in the working world.

There's going to be conversations that are uncomfortable because they're out there. I won't say when this happened, but I had an employee who said this is what I saw is on the market for my role and what I'm doing, and I asked, where did you get this information? They said I checked on Google, and I'm like, OK and then what? What did Google say? Then I saw a video, and I was like, where did you see this video on YouTube? I was like, so you're telling me you're talking to me about your compensation information from YouTube? 

So people are definitely using this now, and we have to think about that. Employers really need to think about the fact that people do have access to technology and content and media pretty much in a snap of a finger.

OH - There's more transparency than ever before. You have to be as honest and upfront as possible because everything is everywhere now. It's hard to keep secrets.

How should our listeners get started with DEI if they're founders?

S - I would say start with your values. As a founder or a CEO, or if you have an investment to start something, start with your values. If they are about creating inclusive environments and collaborative workspaces and diving deeper. Find the root cause of that value. There's this famous thing around like root causes; ask five times why. Why this, why that, why that, why that, why that, and you figure out the root cause. 

Especially when you're going to talk about diversity, ask yourself many questions. Why are you doing it? Because if you get to the root cause of it and you realise, hey, I really want to make my company a place where everybody feels welcome, then use that to harness that energy and harness those conversations. 

I would say definitely, in your first year, you should be really thinking about setting up some sort of diversity inclusion strategy, and that's where you know having a team of HR or a partner in HR could be such a valuable thing. A lot of companies don't invest in HR in the early stages. They'll only invest in HR or people operations when the company has significant investment, and now, they can actually hire an HR manager or recruiter. Even if you don't have the funds, please talk to somebody earlier like that. You'll put yourself in a really good position rather than feeling the pains later down the road.

I would say year one, really creating a recruiting strategy and diversity strategy that focuses on these components. It's important that you know if you're going to use recruiters or you're going to be using a recruiting agency, you're using agencies that will know how to also value that for you. There are a lot of great agencies out there, which I think are very clear in the fact that you can have partnerships that are not full-time employees, but they're individuals who have the same values as you and go back to the values conversation. 

I think year two, year three, you're really thinking about community impact. A lot of people forget that it's not always about just having people come and join your company. It's also about retaining them. Retention is a big piece of this. So, the same way you want to retain a customer is the same way you should want to retain diversity in your company, and you know you need to think about what that is. How do you pour into someone else's cup? I always say that as a CEO, you could do that in many ways. 

You can do that financially, with salary, with bonuses, but you can also do that with accessibility to things that these individuals may not have had. That could be you setting up some sort of incentive programme or programme for learning and development, where you give somebody a budget to talk to somebody who looks like them and who they admire in the same space to grow their career. Now, that value goes back to you as a business as well, not just the individual. But thinking about also community impact from a social impact standpoint. Whether that's you doing community service, whether that is giving back to non-profits in your community or non-profits that your employees choose. 

A lot of people feel very happy when they see their company give back to a non-profit that stands for its values and its mission because they know now the responsibility goes to that non-profit that stands for and does it. But the company is funding a really strong message, and I think that's where you pull up or shut up. I always say it’s pull up or shut up.

But I definitely think as your company matures and grows, you'll find your niche, and you'll find what works for you, and you can also start thinking about what that looks like internally. Are you setting up DEI groups? Are you setting up employee resource groups or infinity groups? Sometimes, your company may not have enough people to start a resource group, but at least you're opening the conversations for those individuals to feel seen and valued. I would say start with values, then start thinking about the strategy, exposure, and community impact. All those components will be key.

OH - Yeah. It all follows a little string of authenticity because it comes from inside, and you start moving outside, which is so important. That was so valuable; I'm still kind of absorbing it. 

What's the number one piece of advice that you'd give to our listeners?

S - I think the main thing is just to be curious. I always tell people to be curious, and even for people who are maybe not in a position to start a company but are thinking about it, there's a valuable network with diverse talent, and it's really valuable for you to think about that. You don't have to start a company right off the bat and have diversity, be loud, and have a banner that says we're diverse.

But you can at least start educating yourself there. There are so many great consultants. One thing the great resignation taught us is you can be your own entrepreneur in this gig economy. There are a lot of great consultants out there who can also give you a great perspective, and there are some great people doing some amazing things in the diversity space from product engineering, customer service, and marketing, and there's definitely that opportunity for you to get exposure. So I would say,

be curious. Put yourself out there. It's OK to look silly sometimes and ask questions that you think are going to be uncomfortable to ask, but people are going to say, hey, I get what you're saying; that doesn't surprise me you don't know this about me or know this about this community.

Connecting internationally through DEI.

S - This is great. It's always great to talk about. It's something I'm just so passionate about diversity and inclusion. It's definitely something that, from a diversity standpoint, I'm always thinking about for myself. It’s so ingrained in me that I'm always talking about it. Luckily, there are some really great people whom I've met in my career and mentors who have really helped me and facilitated those conversations. I feel like it's also my duty now, ten years into my HR experience, to give back to people and talk to people about it.

And thank you all for having me. I think y'all are doing great here at Oakwell and having these conversations. I love that Y'all brought me in from the United States to talk about these conversations because they're so common. They're common everywhere.

I love that you're in the UK, and it's amazing because we can have these conversations, and this is what diversity is. It's sharing those thoughts. Like, hey, this might not look exactly the same here, but it does look like that there, and it feels that way. So, kudos to Y'all, and I love this podcast.

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27th June